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From: "Guru@ITfC" <guru@itforchange.net>
To: <governance@lists.cpsr.org>
Subject: RE: [governance] charter 1.2
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:15:57 +0530
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Dear Adam,
I want to share my thoughts on your mail and some of its linked =
predecessors and successors.
For Parminder, myself and many of us from India, or other countries of =
the 'Geo-Political South' (you may concede this as an accepted term - =
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North-South_divide), socio-economic =
development is an imperative to move towards. Countries in the 'South', =
many of who have achieved political independence in the recent past =
(last 50 years or so), have been struggling in this area due to many and =
complex reasons. One reason is certainly the non-availability of =
infrastructure which is strongly corelated to socio-economic prosperity.
With the advent of the 'Information Revolution', there is a new hope. =
Digital infrastructure potential for socio-economic development has been =
researched and there is reason to believe that this can significantly =
help developing countries to 'leap-frog' development. On the other hand, =
there is also the danger that, if developing countries do not use this =
opportunity, the distance between them and the developed world will =
increase even more. (Read "The Rise of the Network Society: The =
Information Age: Rise of the Network Society Vol 1 (The Information Age) =
by Manuel Castells)
We understand and accept that these concerns may not echo with everybody =
... specially with those from the developed world, who may not have =
experienced these contexts of under development (and they possibly =
constitute 80%+ of all WSIS, IGC Civil society members). The problem =
that most people in this space are not familiar with basic issues of =
development and social change in the context of the developing world, =
could be addressed, and it would really help the process, if we could be =
sensitive to the needs and perspectives of people in such contexts and =
see how we could incorporate their concerns into the ambit of IGC. (I am =
not trying to create a 'us vs them, north vs south' divide in this mail =
... On the other hand, this divide, like many other divides, is a =
reality and can attempted to be addressed through greater sensitivity to =
the others concerns).=20
Many of us are not a part of IGC or WSIS or any of these bodies only for =
these to focus on 'how the internet could be used better / efficiently' =
for the world of 'current users', but how it could positively impact the =
'internet community', which is actually the entire world. (This includes =
around 85% of world population, who do not use the internet =
http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm). We really would like to =
work through the power of civil society (to whatever extent it exists) =
to further a vision of a better world, which is only one possible form =
that the Information Society can take on. Human rights are of course the =
be all and end all of all civil society discourse, to us, the right to =
development and social justice is very intrinsic to these. My request =
therefore is that if our friends can be sensitive to this concern, =
including these as a part of our IGC vision will be useful. Any =
qualifiers to prevent these being read as 'state control' are most =
welcome. Absolutely negating these concepts is in our opinion, limiting =
and self-defeating.
And let us not discard these on the grounds that one or some of us are =
not in favor of these terms. I, or any one of us could disagree with =
every point that is raised on this forum and bring it to a standstill. =
Request reflection and empathy.
Another thought-
We keep harking on the 'socio' aspect of change or development - witness =
social justice or socio-economic prosperity. Simply because we believe =
(and there is also evidence substantiating this belief) that social =
change needs to precede economic change, rather than other way around. =
You could visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice to refer =
the concept of overall fairness of a society in its divisions and =
distributions of rewards and burdens.=20
Regards
Guru
_____________
Gurumurthy K
IT for Change, Bangalore
Bridging Development Realities and Technological Possibilities
www.ITforChange.net=20
Ph: 91 80 2665 4134
Mobile: 91 98454 37730
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to =
pause and reflect ~Mark Twain~
-----Original Message-----
From: Adam Peake [mailto:ajp@glocom.ac.jp]=20
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2006 3:00 PM
To: governance@lists.cpsr.org
Subject: RE: [governance] charter 1.2
I don't understand why the charter needs a vision, all seems a bit =
unnecessary. As we can't seem to agree on justice/social justice, right =
to development, just delete them.
I think the document works best if the title "mission" is deleted, but =
leave the mission paragraph as an introduction (add "action" as =
suggested), then go straight into Objectives and Tasks, e.g.
(document title, whatever that is, "Internet Governance Caucus =
Charter"?)
The Internet Governance Caucus (IGC) provides a forum for discussion, =
advocacy, and representation of civil society contributions in Internet =
governance processes. It is intended to provide an open and effective =
forum for civil society to share expertise and opinion on Internet =
Governance issues, and a mechanism for coordination of advocacy and =
action so as to enhance the utilization and influence of this expertise =
in relevant policy processes.
Objectives and Tasks ...
Thanks,
Adam
> >>while i am sure that my arguments in favor of inclusion of right of =
>development would be as difficult for Parminder to accept >>>
>
> >>i am sure, however, that what i mean by these rights and how i=20
>would see those rights as being derived from the general notion of=20
>human rights varies in many ways from what ever else some other=20
>participant might mean or intend.>>
>
>Avri,
>
>Frankly, I couldn=C2=B9t understand the significance of above. I do not =
see=20
>any major differences between how you may be seeing these rights, and=20
>my views =C2=AD all under the umbrella of a mature discourse that =
already=20
>exists on these issues.
>And of course in the matter of further elaboration of such =C5=92higher =
>level=C2=B9 terms, political differences always remain and are =
reconcilable=20
>under common acceptance of these guidepost terms.
>
> >> a charter that does not enshrine certain controversial rights and=20
>meanings signifies>>
>
>As mentioned above IGC need to build on, and of course contribute to,=20
>the established discourse on these rights, and in this context I find=20
>the demotion of =C5=92right to development=C2=B9 and, even more of, =
social=20
>justice to =C5=92controversial rights and meaning signifiers=C2=B9 =
problematic.=20
>=C5=A0.
>In this context, I have to again remind the group of WSIS outcome docs, =
>and CS declarations.
>Do they also constitute some history to the IGC as does its own=20
>=C5=92history or the statements=C2=B9? Are these not significant =
issues? Does IGC=20
>not at all claim legitimacy of being a platform for wider CS viewpoints =
>and representations?
>
>As for some spirited individuals =C5=92knocking the breath out of =
IGC=C2=B9, it=20
>would help to trace the events on the evolution of the charter process.
>I also have not seen anyone object to social justice and RTD terms=20
>except for one person (Milton). And the objection in this case comes in =
>form of calling these terms redundant, rhetorical, meaningless and=20
>such, which leaves no room for adjustments. Otherwise, we know that we=20
>have worked around language in the drafting group and later on this=20
>list without derailing the process. And when I read your email or=20
>Vittorio=C2=B9s I can see that such a process should have continued.
>
>Parminder
>
>
>________________________________________________
>Parminder Jeet Singh
>IT for Change, Bangalore
>Bridging Development Realities and Technological Possibilities
>91-80-26654134
><http://www.itforchange.net/>www.ITforChange.net
>
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
governance@lists.cpsr.org
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
governance-unsubscribe@lists.cpsr.org
For all list information and functions, see:
http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
governance@lists.cpsr.org
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
governance-unsubscribe@lists.cpsr.org
For all list information and functions, see:
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Dear Adam,</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I want to share my thoughts on your mail and some of =
its linked predecessors and successors.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>For Parminder, myself and many of us from India, or =
other countries of the 'Geo-Political South' (you may concede this as an =
accepted term - see <A =
HREF=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North-South_divide">http://en.wikipe=
dia.org/wiki/North-South_divide</A>), socio-economic development is an =
imperative to move towards. Countries in the 'South', many of who have =
achieved political independence in the recent past (last 50 years or =
so), have been struggling in this area due to many and complex reasons. =
One reason is certainly the non-availability of infrastructure which is =
strongly corelated to socio-economic prosperity.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>With the advent of the 'Information Revolution', there =
is a new hope. Digital infrastructure potential for socio-economic =
development has been researched and there is reason to believe that this =
can significantly help developing countries to 'leap-frog' development. =
On the other hand, there is also the danger that, if developing =
countries do not use this opportunity, the distance between them and the =
developed world will increase even more. (Read "The Rise of the =
Network Society: The Information Age: Rise of the Network Society Vol 1 =
(The Information Age) by Manuel Castells)</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>We understand and accept that these concerns may not =
echo with everybody ... specially with those from the developed world, =
who may not have experienced these contexts of under development (and =
they possibly constitute 80%+ of all WSIS, IGC Civil society members). =
The problem that most people in this space are not familiar with basic =
issues of development and social change in the context of the developing =
world, could be addressed, and it would really help the process, if we =
could be sensitive to the needs and perspectives of people in such =
contexts and see how we could incorporate their concerns into the ambit =
of IGC. (I am not trying to create a 'us vs them, north vs south' divide =
in this mail ... On the other hand, this divide, like many other =
divides, is a reality and can attempted to be addressed through greater =
sensitivity to the others concerns). </FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Many of us are not a part of IGC or WSIS or any of =
these bodies only for these to focus on 'how the internet could be used =
better / efficiently' for the world of 'current users', but how it could =
positively impact the 'internet community', which is actually the entire =
world. (This includes around 85% of world population, who do not use the =
internet <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm">http://www.internetw=
orldstats.com/stats.htm</A>). We really would like to work through the =
power of civil society (to whatever extent it exists) to further a =
vision of a better world, which is only one possible form that the =
Information Society can take on. Human rights are of course the be all =
and end all of all civil society discourse, to us, the right to =
development and social justice is very intrinsic to these. My request =
therefore is that if our friends can be sensitive to this concern, =
including these as a part of our IGC vision will be useful. Any =
qualifiers to prevent these being read as 'state control' are most =
welcome. Absolutely negating these concepts is in our opinion, limiting =
and self-defeating.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>And let us not discard these on the grounds that one =
or some of us are not in favor of these terms. I, or any one of us could =
disagree with every point that is raised on this forum and bring it to a =
standstill. Request reflection and empathy.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Another thought-</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>We keep harking on the 'socio' aspect of change or =
development - witness social justice or socio-economic prosperity. =
Simply because we believe (and there is also evidence substantiating =
this belief) that social change needs to precede economic change, rather =
than other way around. You could visit <A =
HREF=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice">http://en.wikipedia.=
org/wiki/Social_justice</A> to refer the concept of overall =
fairness of a society in its divisions and distributions of rewards and =
burdens. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Regards</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Guru</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>_____________</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Gurumurthy K</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>IT for Change, Bangalore</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Bridging Development Realities and Technological =
Possibilities</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>www.ITforChange.net </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Ph: 91 80 2665 4134</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Mobile: 91 98454 37730</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Whenever you find yourself on the side of the =
majority, it is time to pause and reflect ~Mark Twain~</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Adam Peake [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:ajp@glocom.ac.jp">mailto:ajp@glocom.ac.jp</A>] </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Monday, June 19, 2006 3:00 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: governance@lists.cpsr.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: RE: [governance] charter 1.2</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I don't understand why the charter needs a vision, all =
seems a bit unnecessary. As we can't seem to agree on justice/social =
justice, right to development, just delete them.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I think the document works best if the title =
"mission" is deleted, but leave the mission paragraph as an =
introduction (add "action" as suggested), then go straight =
into Objectives and Tasks, e.g.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>(document title, whatever that is, "Internet =
Governance Caucus Charter"?)</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The Internet Governance Caucus (IGC) provides a forum =
for discussion, advocacy, and representation of civil society =
contributions in Internet governance processes. It is intended to =
provide an open and effective forum for civil society to share expertise =
and opinion on Internet Governance issues, and a mechanism for =
coordination of advocacy and action so as to enhance the utilization and =
influence of this expertise in relevant policy processes.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Objectives and Tasks ...</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Thanks,</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Adam</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> >>while i am sure that my arguments =
in favor of inclusion of right of </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>development would be as difficult for Parminder =
to accept >>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> >>i am sure, however, that what i =
mean by these rights and how i </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>would see those rights as being derived from the =
general notion of </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>human rights varies in many ways from what ever =
else some other </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>participant might mean or =
intend.>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>Avri,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>Frankly, I couldn=C2=B9t understand the =
significance of above. I do not see </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>any major differences between how you may be =
seeing these rights, and </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>my views =C2=AD all under the umbrella of a =
mature discourse that already </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>exists on these issues.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>And of course in the matter of further =
elaboration of such =C5=92higher </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>level=C2=B9 terms, political differences always =
remain and are reconcilable </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>under common acceptance of these guidepost =
terms.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> >> a charter that does not enshrine =
certain controversial rights and </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>meanings signifies>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>As mentioned above IGC need to build on, and of =
course contribute to, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>the established discourse on these rights, and in =
this context I find </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>the demotion of =C5=92right to development=C2=B9 =
and, even more of, social </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>justice to =C5=92controversial rights and =
meaning signifiers=C2=B9 problematic. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>=C5=A0.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>In this context, I have to again remind the group =
of WSIS outcome docs, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>and CS declarations.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>Do they also constitute some history to the IGC =
as does its own </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>=C5=92history or the statements=C2=B9? Are these =
not significant issues? Does IGC </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>not at all claim legitimacy of being a platform =
for wider CS viewpoints </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>and representations?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>As for some spirited individuals =C5=92knocking =
the breath out of IGC=C2=B9, it </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>would help to trace the events on the evolution =
of the charter process.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>I also have not seen anyone object to social =
justice and RTD terms </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>except for one person (Milton). And the objection =
in this case comes in </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>form of calling these terms redundant, =
rhetorical, meaningless and </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>such, which leaves no room for adjustments. =
Otherwise, we know that we </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>have worked around language in the drafting group =
and later on this </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>list without derailing the process. And when I =
read your email or </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>Vittorio=C2=B9s I can see that such a process =
should have continued.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>Parminder</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>>________________________________________________</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>Parminder Jeet Singh</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>IT for Change, Bangalore</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>Bridging Development Realities and Technological =
Possibilities</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>91-80-26654134</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>><<A =
HREF=3D"http://www.itforchange.net/">http://www.itforchange.net/</A>>w=
ww.ITforChange.net</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>____________________________________________________________</FO=
NT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>You received this message as a subscriber on the =
list:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> =
governance@lists.cpsr.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To be removed from the list, send any message =
to:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> =
governance-unsubscribe@lists.cpsr.org</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>For all list information and functions, see:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> <A =
HREF=3D"http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance">http://lists.cpsr.or=
g/lists/info/governance</A></FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>____________________________________________________________</FO=
NT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>You received this message as a subscriber on the =
list:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> =
governance@lists.cpsr.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To be removed from the list, send any message =
to:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> =
governance-unsubscribe@lists.cpsr.org</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>For all list information and functions, see:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2> <A =
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