Dear Colleagues at the Content group,
Thanks for the final version of the declaration. Thanks as well to those
insightful discussions, especially to Sacha's well elaborated and nuanced
sharing on the complex issues of internet restriction v-a-v abuse
(especially that which target children). I agree to the observations you put
forward, and I also agree to the final point that there are specific venues
where communication "abuse" can be addressed -- i.e. not necessarily in a
declaration.
I'm sorry I had been remiss in participating in this e-group. We also had
burning issues to face back home, and I found it difficult to shift gears.
Now I'm back to WSIS concerns again here at the PrepCom 2 in Geneva),
together with the old colleagues back at the Asia. Biting cold. (even worse
than our ha..hy...hypothermia, Serena ;-).
I wish our original dynamic, "vervy," pro-active content group was still
here to continue the engagement. Nevertheless, as Sacha said, we still have
a good group -- a formidable group -- now still taking on the task.
Bye and regards.
Bobby
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sacha Jotisalikorn" <sacha@forumasia.org>
To: <communication@wsisasia.org>
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 2:17 PM
Subject: [communication 531] Re: Our Tokyo declaration
> Hi Sakiyama-san,
>
> Thank you for your information and thoughts. I think this specific
infromation you
> mention is very constructive to any further discussion. If you will allow
me to share my
> view with you, I would agree that points b and c and the implications to
violations of
> basic rights you also mention would be problematic and cause more problems
than solve
> them. I would share concerns about the points and rights issues and
support the Japanese
> public to question the signing and adoption of the convention by the
Japanese
> government.
>
> On another note, going back to surveillance. If anyone, (individuals,
companies,
> government agencies etc) had the means to do so, they would just go ahead
and do it, why
> waste time and grief and draw attention to yourself by hiding behind
conventions and
> agreements and groups etc.
>
> Related to this, in a recent tech roundup in the Bangkok Post, the
columnist (in ever
> cynical mood) reports: "US president George W Bush announced the official
start of the
> Terrorist Threat Integration Center, which will try to gather all the
computer
> information on the globe in order to make the world safe from terrorism,
not that it
> would ever violate your privacy in the process, perish the thought."
>
> Below are some links reporting on this:
>
> <http://epistolary.org/1856.html> about the Total Information Awareness:
This profiling
> system run by the Information Awareness Office under DARPA by John
Poindexter is already
> funded by the United States Government and will correlate the data from a
massive number
> of government and commercial databases to identify citizens engaged in
suspicious
> activity. Some suspect it may soon be superceded by the Terrorist Threat
Integration
> Center.
>
> another: <http://news.com.com/2100-1001-982640.html> a CNET report on the
Terrorist
> threat Information Center.
>
> (Lots more links in Google).
>
> Sacha
>
> SAKIYAMA Nobuo wrote:
>
> > Regarding Convention on Cybercrime by Council of Europe, which
> > Toshi mentioned, problems are not so simple.
> > http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/en/Treaties/Html/185.htm
> >
> > In the CoE Convention, the definition of "child pornography" is
> > >> pornographic material that visually depicts:
> > >> a. a minor engaged in sexually explicit conduct;
> > >> b. a person appearing to be a minor engaged in sexually explicit
conduct;
> > >> c. realistic images representing a minor engaged in sexually
explicit conduct.
> > (b) and (c) are about "imaginary" things.
> > >> Each Party may reserve the right not to apply
> > these paragraphs, but still are encouraged not to reserve.
> > This convention also has many problems not related to child
> > pornography, conflicting basic human rights , freedom of expression,
> > freedom of academic reserach (on computer security), and
> > confidentiality of communication.
> >
> > Japan is the only state in Asia which signed CoE Convention on
> > Cybercrime, and in my understanding, Japanese Government apparently
> > did not adopt "open" multiple stakeholder approach for that convention
> > in Japan.
> > --
> > SAKIYAMA Nobuo sakichan@sakichan.org
> >
> > At Thu, 13 Feb 2003 19:04:08 +0700,
> > Sacha Jotisalikorn wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Toshi-san,
> > >
> > > It is good to hear from you, as always. I am glad that we can use the
list
> > > as an opportunity to share viewpoints, however divergent they may be.
I
> > > think our mail list has been a good example of a robust Information
> > > Society; that we understand and accept that there are different points
of
> > > view in the world, that we respect the rights of a person to be able
to
> > > communicate what they think, though we we don't necessarily have to
agree.
> > >
> > > I'd like to respectfully respond to some of your comments. The way you
> > > write and express certain things makes me take offense to certain
> > > implications made in your message. I hope that you can accept this as
an
> > > attempt to offer constructive feedback and search for better
understanding
> > > of what you mean to say.
> > >
> > > I don't make any "moral" judgements on "pornography" and will not
attempt
> > > to argue whether it is a crime or not, but creating pictures of sexual
> > > content with real children as subject matter and in sexual acts causes
> > > serious harm to those children. I don't think this should be dismissed
as
> > > a "so-called serious crime". Unlike adults who by definition, have the
> > > intellectual and emotional capacity to consent to sexual activities,
> > > children lack the development to understand sex and the nature of
sexual
> > > relationships, or the consequences of their actions, such as how their
> > > pictures will be used. Many of the children engaged in these
activities
> > > are very young 12 years and less, others may be older 15-16--but we
are
> > > not really talking about older, adventurous young adults. Children
place
> > > a great implicit trust in adults to protect and nurture them. Adults
who
> > > engage children in such activity exploit this vulnerability in
children.
> > > These adults may seek commercial or personal gain; many share/trade
these
> > > pictures with other paedophiles. The most prevalent way to do this is
> > > through the internet.
> > >
> > > The issue is not "pornography" or "child pornography"; the issue is
> > > specifically that children are mislead, coerced, manipulated by these
> > > adults to perform sexual acts. These are not "so-called" acts, they
are
> > > real cases of one human taking advantage of another more vulnerable
human
> > > who doesn't have a clue. The photos and videos are evidence of these
acts.
> > > And is it not ironic that these photos are shared and traded with
other
> > > paedophiles without the consent of the children?
> > >
> > > In Thailand we are quite familiar with the problem. Local and
> > > international press have investigated and reported on many occasions
the
> > > exploitation of these children. Many of the reports concern western
men, a
> > > majority from the US and UK who come to Thailand to seek sex with
young
> > > boys and girls. They are usually caught and tried not only because of
the
> > > testimony of witnesses and children but also because of the photos and
> > > videos they take while having sex with children or having children
have
> > > sex with each other. Upon further investigation these paedophiles
admit
> > > that they came to Thailand because of the information and photos they
> > > receive from others through the internet. The problem is also
prevalent
> > > in Cambodia, perhaps more so because of weaker rule of law.
> > >
> > > Another inaccurate and misleading comment that you make concerns the
UN
> > > Convention Against Transnational Organized Crime. You imply that the
> > > convention is created so that US and other western countries may
> > > strengthen monitoring and surveillance of migrant people under the
pretext
> > > of restricting human trafficking.
> > >
> > > Again in Southeast Asia there is a problem of human trafficking. The
> > > people that are trafficked are an overwhelming majority of women and
> > > children. A number of them are trafficked for commercial sexual
> > > exploitation. These women and children are recruited with prospects
of a
> > > better income crossing borders as migrant laborers, factory workers,
> > > cooks, waitresses etc, whether legally or illegally. Along the way
their
> > > handlers sell them off to other handlers who force/coerce the women
and
> > > children into the commercial sex trade. Some try to run away and
succeed,
> > > others don't try or don't succeed. While some others are physically
> > > confined against their will.
> > >
> > > In the Southeast Asia region Thailand is both a trafficking
destination
> > > and a transit country. There are trafficking routes among these
countries:
> > > Myanmar, China, Thailand, Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, Malaysia,
Singapore.
> > > Traffickers have quickly caught on to loopholes in these countries'
laws.
> > > The know what they can legally get away with in each country and adapt
to
> > > it because there are no consistent legal mechanisms recognized and
> > > practiced in these countries. Traffickers have learned to network. As
far
> > > as I know there is no large syndicate that covers origin point to
> > > destination; they pass on the trafficked people to each other along
the
> > > route. Unlike paedophiles who use the internet I'm not sure to what
extent
> > > these traffickers take advantage of the communication technology.
> > >
> > > Physical confinement also applies not only to those who are
commercially
> > > sexually exploited but also laborers in sweatshops. In Thailand there
have
> > > also been reported cases of children confined and rescued from
sweatshops.
> > >
> > > Others who willingly allow themselves to be trafficked across borders
and
> > > willingly enter the sex trade are not immune to exploitation. Anyone
in a
> > > country illegally, trafficked or not, faces possible exploitation
because
> > > they think they have forfeited any legal protection that the country's
> > > labor and other laws might offer "real" workers. Many fear arrest and
> > > deportation and therefore loss of any income they may be deriving. So
they
> > > put up with unfair and exploitative employers.
> > >
> > > The UN Convention Against Transnational Organized Crime is among other
> > > things, a concerted attempt to close those legal loopholes that
> > > traffickers exploit.
> > >
> > > As with any international agreement there has been long and ongoing
> > > discussion and research by many and various NGOs, inter-governemntal
> > > bodies such as UNICEF, government offices, legal organizations in
> > > different countries and regions of the world to address these
problems.
> > > Any conventions such as the Cyber Crime Convention or the Convention
> > > Against Transnational Organized Crime are the result of serious
researh,
> > > deliberation and input/consultation and agreement from multiple (level
and
> > > sector) stakeholders. I think it's inaccurate and misleading to imply
that
> > > these conventions are arbitrarily created in an adhoc manner to be
> > > conveniently used any specific groups with hidden agendas.
> > >
> > > I could see that it's possible for groups or individuals within the
EU, US
> > > or Japanese governments to creatively cite the conventions as a
pretext
> > > for surveillance of other people not suspected of being engaged in the
> > > commercial sexual exploitation of children or of commercial
trafficking of
> > > women and children. But I think it's inaccurate and misleading to
imply
> > > that their has been a conspiracy to dupe the rest of the world into
giving
> > > the EU, US and Japanese governments a free hand in surveillance.
> > >
> > > Because these conventions are by nature results of a broad consensus
they
> > > may not be perfect, but to dismiss the efforts of all the people who
> > > worked hard in creating the conventions is a great disservice, and it
> > > belittles all the people who work to stop the sexual exploitation of
> > > children and the commercial trafficking of women and children.
> > >
> > > Thank you for taking the time to read my message. I hope that you will
> > > revaluate your opinion of these conventions and see them within their
> > > proper context. I think these conventions were created in the same
spirit
> > > as other conventions, which we as civil society uphold and ask
governments
> > > to abide by.
> > >
> > > Sacha
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Toshimaru Ogura wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dear all,
> > > >
> > > > I am sorry I have been silencing for long time.
> > > >
> > > > From: Adam Peake <ajp@glocom.ac.jp>
> > > > Subject: [communication 408] Our Tokyo declaration
> > > > Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 02:17:14 +0900
> > > > Message-ID: <p05100301ba59c7056e11@[192.168.11.2]>
> > > >
> > > > > Missing from the numbered list - children and exploitation of
> > > > > children. A millennium goal issue, and one particularly important
to
> > > > > our region.
> > > >
> > > > I understand children issues is very serious. But I think we should
> > > > consider it more deliberately in terms of the internet issues.
Because
> > > > EU, US and Japan tries to ratify the Cyber Crime Convention by
Council
> > > > of Europe by pretext of spreading child pornography in the
> > > > Internet. This convention permits more free hands to law enforcement
> > > > for wiretapping, surveillance and other investigation beyond
national
> > > > border in order to investigate so called "serious crimes".
> > > >
> > > > Also, US and other western countries try to strengthen monitoring
and
> > > > surveillance of migrants people by pretext of restriction of human
> > > > trafficking. In this pint, the United Nations Convention against
> > > > Transnational Organized Crime has a serious damage to our civil
> > > > liberty and human rights for political activities though this has a
> > > > protocol regarding human trafficking.
> > > >
> > > > We should be careful not being carried off our own feet. Especially
> > > > if we should refer "children" issues, we should also express our own
> > > > view point regarding the Cyber Crime Convention and the UN
Convention
> > > > against Transnational Organized Crime. As for my own opinion, I have
> > > > been opposing these two conventions for several years with many
> > > > Japanese civil action groups.
> > > >
> > > > Regarding Cyber Crime Convention issues, please check following web
> > > > sites.
> > > > http://www.statewatch.org/
> > > > http://www.gilc.org/
> > > >
> > > > best regards,
> > > >
> > > > toshi
> > > > ((((((((((^0^)))))))))
> > > > toshimaru ogura
> > > > ogr@nsknet.or.jp
> > > > toshi@jca.apc.org
> > > > ((((((((((^0^)))))))))
> > >
>
>